H -°, L 6° | Tomorrow: 
H 18°, L 6°“We would like to thank the Communist Parties and working class of the countries of the world, national liberation movements, nationalist countries, peace-loving countries, international democratic organizations, and progressive human beings for their wholehearted support, and strong encouragement to our people’s patriotic resistance against the U.S. for national salvation.” — These words are engraved on a wall plaque in the War Remnants Museum in Vietnam, where John Kerry’s picture hangs as an ally and sympathizer of the murderous Communist regime.
I am an internal optimist who believes that the past is behind us and the future is bright, but I just cannot let John Kerry’s record go unchallenged. The straw that broke the camel’s back was when Kerry mentioned his Vietnam service a half dozen times during the first debate. If Kerry is going to make an issue out of his service, the American people have the right to critique. Before I begin, John Kerry was a hero in Vietnam. He served his country in a war that many thought was unjust. Furthermore, he was shot at and voluntarily put himself in harm’s way, which I will not dispute and I commend him for it. What I do dispute is what he did when he got back to the States. Kerry turned his back on his comrades and began a slander campaign that caused many to be tortured in Vietnam and caused hundreds of thousands of soldiers to get an appalling return stateside. John Kerry was at best dishonorable and at worst traitorous for what he did to his brothers in arms.
One thing that John Kerry did not (and still doesn’t) understand is that every word a man or woman of power says will have consequences. It is without doubt that Kerry was not aware of how far reaching his words would be when he gave his infamous testimony in front of the Fulbright Committee. In the speech, Kerry spoke of war crimes that were committed by his comrades while in Vietnam. Although John Kerry himself never saw the war crimes he mentioned, he cited discharged veterans, none of whom were under oath or swore to affidavits. Kerry spoke of the U.S. soldiers as “reminiscent of Ghengis Khan.” Soldiers that were fighting in Vietnam felt the consequences of these words hardest as public opinion against them changed overnight. Although many felt the war was not right, John Kerry put the public cross-hairs on the American infantryman. As a consequence, returning veterans were spit on, called baby-killers and even worse, were ridiculed and laughed at for serving their country. Moreover, no one wanted to be associated with veterans. Many would not even put prior service on job applications. John Kerry’s words of hate and deception caused hundreds of thousands of U.S. veterans undue stress and humiliation, but the harm it caused prisoners of war (POWs) was even worse.
Most horror stories of the Vietnam conflict originate from the infamous Communist prison camps where mental and physical torture was commonplace. Many POW veterans have memories of a voice being boomed over loud speakers for hours on end, speaking of war crimes. This voice used to break the spirit of POWs was that of John Kerry. Many POWs were forced to sign confessions saying they were war criminals and, even more, were subjected to mental interrogation techniques that revolved around Kerry’s words. Paul Galanti, a POW in North Vietnam for seven years, recalled John Kerry’s words all too well when he was interviewed by the L.A. Times last February. Galanti said his prison guards cited Kerry’s speeches as “an example of why (they) should cross over to (their) side.” He went on to say that “Kerry broke a covenant among servicemen never to make public criticisms that might jeopardize those still in battle or in the hands of the enemy,” and “John Kerry was a traitor to the men he served with.” John Kerry either knowingly or unknowingly let his testimony be used by the enemy as propaganda against our troops. As a result, morale plummeted in South Vietnam and the Viet Cong had a new battle cry. John Kerry is and was a hero to the Communist dictatorship in Vietnam because he rallied Americans against the war, by what ever means necessary. He did all of this, not for the troops, not for the Vietnamese people and certainly not for democracy; he did it for himself. In the coming years, his antiwar stardom rose. He met several times with North Vietnamese leaders, while the war was being fought, and continued to bash U.S. soldiers. It is one thing to be against the merits of a war, but it is quite another to be against its participants.
The sad truth is that Kerry hurt more than he helped in his anti-war rise to fame, and most veterans will never forgive him for it. According to Galanti, “The Vietnam memorial has thousands of additional names due to John Kerry and others like him.” John Kerry aided the enemy by giving them propaganda and distorting the truth in their favor. Kerry saw an opportunity to gain political clout and seized it. Why should he care how many were hurt as a consequence?
Robert Thelen, III ([email protected]) is a junior majoring in political science and management.
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Wow, actually someone on this campus who as enough courage to tell the truth about Kerry. He WAS bad for soldiers and he would BE had for soldiers. Take this from a retired Army Ranger who fought in Iraq. I trust George W. Bush far more with my life than John Kerry
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Someone actually knows this much about John Kerry? And no one else uncovered this information before? You, Robert Thelen, are the first person to stumble onto this? No one else managed to “sift and winnow” deep enough to find out this stuff about John Kerry?
I would like very much for you explain where you got all this information, Mr. Thelen. It’s the only way we will totally believe you.
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It was reported by Bill Gertz of the Washington Times.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=20040902-113505-3545r
Just to be clear, that quote was ABOUT Kerry, not uttered BY Kerry.
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Robert, you need to learn the difference between “internal” and “eternal.” Also, you can do a lot better than plagiarizing from a Moonie-owned and Republican-biased rag like the Washington Times.
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OK, I read the Washington Times article and true, Kerry is not quoted directly at all as saying anything to indicate that he sides with North Vietnam. But Robert, could you please explain to us why Kerry should be considered a traitor? What exactly did he ever say that could be construed as anti-American, or interpreted as something that could be detrimental to his fellow troops?
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So you’re defending Viet Nam?
I thought we resolved this issue 30 years ago. The Viet Nam war wasn’t a good thing.
John Kerry stuck to his principles when he spoke out against the war. Principles that were right.
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Yes, Robert, you need to be relying on reputable people from the mainstream press - people like Dan Rather. They’re only biased in favor of our genocidal enemies, and don’t care how many forged documents they need to use, or how many American corpses they need to pile up in order to achieve the really important goal: defeating George Bush.
Oh, and Bill Gertz is a good reporter. His bosses’ bosses may be moonies, but that’s irrelevant. I’ve heard that even the Christian Science Monitor used to be a newspaper (you could never tell be reading it today), despite Christian Science’s kooky views on medicine.
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By Bill Gertz and Rowan Scarborough THE WASHINGTON TIMES Published September 3, 2004
Kerry and Vietnam If Sen. John Kerry is elected president, he will be the first commander in chief whose photograph is honored by a one-time enemy in thanks for helping it defeat the United States in war. A photo of Mr. Kerry meeting with Vietnamese communist leaders in 1983 hangs in the War Remnants Museum, which used to be called the “War Crimes Museum,” in Ho Chi Minh City. According to best-selling book “Unfit for Command,” that wing honors Americans who helped the North Vietnamese communists chase Americans from the South. Others in the wing include anti-war activist David Miller, who is shown burning his draft card in 1965. A plaque at the museum quotes from a Vietnamese Communist Party report in 1974 stating that “we would like to thank the communist parties and working class of the countries of the world … peace-loving countries … and progressive human beings for their whole-hearted support and strong encouragement to our people’s patriotic resistance against the U.S. for national salvation.” A separate women’s museum displays a photo of Jane Fonda meeting with Viet Cong Foreign Minister Madame Nguyen Thi Binh
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If you want more proof please visit: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38738
or buy the book “Unfit for command” where there are several pictures of John Kerry’s picture in the Museum
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Please read: John M. Flionna, Times Staff Writer, “Vietnam War Illuminates, Shadows Kerry’s Campaign. Long after the divisive war, veterans take sides over the Democrat’s duty and dissidence,” - Los Angeles Times, February 17, 1971 for more informatin about what Veterans think of kerry
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Also read: B.G. Burkett and Glenna Whitley. Stolen Valor: How the Vietnamese Generation was robbed of ites heroes and its history.
This and Flionna’s piece show what Kerry’s disloyalty towards veterans.
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Also, search for testimony of former POW Jim Warner and his accounts of how Kerry’s testimony was used against them in the camps.
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OK folks, we’ve got enough reference material to read between now and Election Day. That was then, this is now. George W. did his part to help the enemy by evading the draft too, I hope you know. Both candidates deserve equal praise or scorn, depending on what side of the Vietnam issue you are on. Vietnam is now history. Be in the now.
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Jesus Christ, Robert, in addition to being a plagarist, you are a terrible writer. The “internal” slip-up was already pointed out, but putting the “American cross-eyes” on the infantry man…well, is that really a bad thing? I mean, they’re not looking at them straight, so it’s unlikely the American public could see them correctly….oh wait. You meant “cross-hair,” I’m sure, but man, you just can’t get it right, can you.
You are a regurgitating jackass, a terrible writer, and a plagarist. How the hell you write for this admittedly low-standard having rag, is beyond me.
John Kerry is not a traitor, there is a technical, legal term which defines that. Kerry spoke out valiantly and within his rights as any American is able to under the 1st Amendment.
Hacks like you are the real danger to our government.
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Wow, if the worst thing you can find is a couple grammical errors, then you don’t have an arguement. They are usually better when you have a GOOD arguement then go from there instead of a little detail and go on a tiraid from there.
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Hey anonymous who wrote “instead of a little detail and go on a tiraid from there”: It’s spelled “tirade”, not “tiraid”!
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I don’t think you can compare the Christian Science Monitor and the Washington Times. Do the owners of the Christian Science Monitor believe they are the God-Kings of the universe? Seriously, truth is stranger than fiction when it comes to the Moonies.
For anyone who wants a counterview to this argument—which essentially boils down to “dissent is bad,” a theme Bush has relied on the past few weeks—I suggest seeing Going Upriver, which documents both Kerry’s wartime activities and his anti-war ones. It is a pro-Kerry piece, to be sure, but still well done.
Finally, consider this: for those of you who REALLY believe that Bush is better for soliders, ask yourself about his past convictions. John Kerry certainly had political ambitions from an early age, and had to know that his anti-war activities would make it difficult for him in the future. He did it anyway. Contrast this with the youth of our current president, who was too busy doing drugs and womanizing to worry about the world around him. I think it’s dumb for Kerry to harp too much on his past, but if we’re going to get involved in a debate over the past, Bush can’t even come within striking distance.
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That’s odd. I read the Washington Times on occasion. Yet I seem to have missed all of the editorial and articles urging us to worship the God-Kings of the Universe. You’re right that you can’t compare it to the CSM, though. The Times isn’t rooting for our enemies.
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Mr. Thelan, As a political science major, I would think you would understand the need to a) confirm your ‘facts’ and b) not confuse causality with chronology.
First, there has never been a documented case of a Vietnam soldier being spit upon by an anti-war protester: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=174541&highlight=vietnam+spit While the concensus seems to be that such an event may well have occurred, there has never been a documented instance. Hence, on what are you basing your claims, Mr. Thelan? You have no source, you are simply stringing together a series of events as if that somehow created a causal relationship.
Secondly, even if that had happened, how on earth do you conclude that such actions were directly caused by Sen. Kerry’s remarks? You make absolutely no attempt to explain how one man’s remarks (and not a particularly famous one at that point, either) directly (or even indirectly) led to such abuses (which have never been documented).
In addition, there are many, many veterans who have spoken out against Vietnam - are all these people anti-American, too? How does speaking out against the atrocities of war make one more ‘anti-American’ than, I dunno, using your family’s influence to skip ahead of 150,000 other men for a position guaranteed never to see duty (and then shirk that obligation)? How does speaking out against a war that specifically targeted poor, rural, low-IQ minorities to enlist in the front lines make one ‘anti-American’? (One of Robert McNamara’s ideas)
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I agree with the above poster.
Robert, it is conservatives like you who are endangering the very Constitution that we hold so dear. You might as well burn our first amendment rights when you classify free speech dissention as "anti-American" and "treacherous".
I am and always have been against the war in Iraq. Yet I have close friends who have been or are over there fighting. I don't believe my protesting against the war in any way "betrays" my friends fighting overseas; on the contrary. I hope that, by speaking out, we can make the government realize a mistake has been made and save the lives of U.S. soldiers and Iraqi citizens in the future. John Kerry was attempting to do the same by speaking out against Vietnam, and if it hadn't been for Vets against the War and members like Kerry, we would not have pulled out from that great mistake and many more men would've died. If you don't like what Kerry said, fine. But don't you dare accuse him of siding with the enemy through his protest. How can you say he did what he did for political gain, when his anti-war actions have caused Republican sharks like you to scream bloody murder? It truly is said that, to this day, speaking your mind and standing up for what you believe in requires paying such a hefty price. I commend Kerry BECAUSE he protested, instead of staunchly supporting the war and getting out of combat duty through daddy's connections like that coward Bush.
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You know, war really sucks. Unless of course you are a defense contractor.
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Of course, we could talk about what Dubya was doing during the same time, but nobody remembers seeing him do what he said he did, and I don’t think Dubya does either, what with all the coke he snorted during that time.
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I got an uncle who got out of the draft during Veitnam by intentionaly getting busted with a joint. Now that’s how real heroes are born; get yourself so fucked up you don’t know what’s going on and Uncle Sam don’t want you. Then its off to the Dead concert! Woo-hoo!
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man, don’t you knuckleheads understand that kerry protested the war to SAVE american lives? do you know how many more americans would have died without brave veterans like him speaking out and bringing the war to an end?
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“It’s sad that speaking your mind carries such a hefty price”…kind of like being a conservative thinker in Madison, huh? My guess is that you probably think pro-lifers, gay marriage opponents, etc. are “narrow-minded” because you don’t agree with their stance. My politics fit somewhere in the middle depending on the respective issue, but I see just as much “intolerance” from the left as I do from the right.
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Actually, we conservatives think that pro-lifers and gays et.al. are narrow-minded because they think all white males are warmongering bigots. How much of that BS do they expect to get away with? As far as I’m concerned, they all overstayed their welcome at center-stage and now it’s time for them to head for the exit. If they’re so tolerant then how come white males can’t go anywhere without having to put up with their constant bitching that we are somehow responsible for every crummy minute of their existence? Let them solve their own stupid problems.
I don’t think our fearless leaders have any business sending other people’s kids to die in some useless war. But damned if I’m going to personally take the blame just because I’m a white guy like the draft-dodging coke-snorting asshole who got us into it.
Yes, I’m voting for Kerry, but not because I think he’ll do a better job. To me Kerry is a conservative Democrat, which in my opinion is the next worst thing to a Republican. I just think we should change presidents more often.
Just don’t fuck with me or I might change my mind. And my vote.
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So your principles…are based on who you want to piss off? Seriously, what on earth does all this bitter vitriol about oppressed white males have to do with this editorial?
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If Kerry had merely said that Vietnam was a strategic mistake, and that the value of the goal was not worth the lives and treasure expended, then he could indeed have been considered a patriotic opponent of the war. In fact, he probably would have been right. Even if you disagree with that assessment of the war, Kerry would at worst be guilty of poor strategic thinking.
But that was not the essence of Kerry’s argument.
In his 1971 senate testimony, Kerry did not just say that the war wasn’t worth it (although that was one of the items on his laundry list). Kerry painted America and has fellow soldier a brutal, racist, and fundamentally evil. He didn’t just say that Americans committed war crimes (a charge that would be true and trivial, since those occurs in every major war fought by every country.) Kerry charged that the war crimes were absolutely routine and a matter more of policy than accident. He was lying. In fact his organization fabricated its war crimes charges. Kerry also said that the war crimes were part and parcel of America’s violent culture. He compared the behavior of his fellow soldiers to the acts of Genghis Khan. But don’t question Kerry’s patriotism.
Later Kerry traveled to Paris to meet with the communists. As a result of this “negotiation”, Kerry completely embraced the communist position that a peace treaty should be independent of prisoner release. If Kerry had had his way, American prisoners might have endured many more years of communist torture.
After John Kerry painted America as evil and communists as benign, we withdrew from South East Asia, and the communists took over. They promptly slaughtered a couple of million people, sent millions more to the gulags, and forced the entire population to live under totalitarianism. Regardless of whether the war was a strategic mistake for the US, there can simply be no doubt about the relative moral positions of the communists and Americans. John Kerry lied about the morality of the war, and has never apologized.
Maybe that’s why you believe Kerry to be such a hero. Or if I were more generous, I would assume that you don’t know what the hell you’re babbling about.
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That last comment was from me. Just so you know where to direct your rage.
—Lizzy
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Once again someone brought up the “Bush the coward” smear. Let’s dispose of that now.
George Bush put in something like 300 hours in an F-102, an aging a rather dangerous aircraft. Why would a coward do that? The tinfoil hat brigade attributes vast power to Bush family connections. So why couldn’t this coward have used those connections to do something much safer?
There’s another problem with the “Bush as coward” claim. According to one of Bush’s superior’s, Bush volunteered to fly in Vietnam.
http://www.volunteertv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2346701
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Hey kiddo, if you poor oppressed minorities can blame all your personal problems on white males while being oppressors yourselves, then why can’t white males defend themselves? Fair is fair. Get used to it.
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Miss Lanche, You wrote “George Bush put in something like 300 hours in an F-102, an aging a rather dangerous aircraft. Why would a coward do that?” Maybe because there was a military DRAFT requiring young men to serve in the military. Bush is a coward because he was vaulted over thousands of other enlisted men and somehow got placed in the Texas N.G. over everyone else (at a time where the National Guard was virtually guarenteed to get out of combat). If he offered to “fight in Vietnam” then why wasn’t he sent over like Kerry was when he offered to fight? The saddest part is that Bush was a known avid supporter of the war, yet he didn’t make an attempt (again, if he had, he would’ve been over there fighting) to fight in the war he backed so much. I firmly believe that military records of 30 years ago shouldn’t be the issue of this campaign, and it’s pathetic if anyone votes for either candidate solely based on these records. But it’s pathetic to chastize Kerry for “honorable service” (as quoted by BOTH the president and vice president) and try to let Bush off the hook for getting out of going to Vietnam. Maybe his actions were not cowardly, perhaps, like the Vice President, he had “other priorities” than military service. Perhaps like snorting cocaine and being a world class fuck-up (and driving his numorous businesses into the ground).
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BUSH IS A MOTHERFUCKING PUSSY. Who gives a fuck if he flew 300+ hours in a plane inf FUCKING TEXAS! He had the option of going to Vietnam (he could have checked a box that said “I volunteer for overseas service” and BAM, he fucking didn’t.
Why? Because he’s a pussy. Huge, giant, pussy. The man is such a chicken hawk piece of shit, as is nearly his entire Cabinet with the exception of Powell, that frankly, he doesn’t deserve the slightest bit of respect.
BUSH IS A HUGE PUSSY. Period. Kerry would kick his ass in a fight, then and now.
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“BUSH IS A MOTHERFUCKING PUSSY.”
Yeah, and so were a lot of other draft dodgers. What would YOU do if a draft were reinstituted today? Would you bravely and courageously serve your country, or would you move around the country and change your address once a week like so many draft dodgers did back then? Would you dutifully report to the MEPS facility for induction processing, or would you head for the Canadian border?
Honestly, I wouldn’t hold it against you either way you went, but Vietnam wa an unjust, poorly-fought war. It was just an opportunity for the defense contractors to get stinking rich. Our government entered the conflict for one of the most ignorant reasons, just like Bush himself made up all that crap about WMDs to invade Iraq. He lied just like Johnson lied.
So before you call EITHER candidate a pussy, tell us just how you would handle the same situation. You’re a macho man, speak your mind. We’re listening.
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Again, Anonymous isn’t following the argument. If the Bush family had so much power to help George (probably guided by Dark Lord Karl Rove and Haliburton) then why couldn’t they get him something much safer than flying F-102s?
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I don’t know who posted the “Bush is a coward” thing but I have to repond to Lizzy. First of all, if Bush didn’t use his family connections, how did he get propelled over thousands of names on the Texas Air National Guard Waiting List? At that time, everyone was trying to get into the Guard and if Bush wouldn’t have used connections, there’s no way he would’ve gotten in over all those others.
Second, you’re right about flying F-102’s not being safe, but doing ANYTHING in the military is not that safe, even basic training. We all know what a cowboy Bush is, so no wonder he chose flying. Again, due to the draft, he had to do something. Not very risky when there’s no one shooting at you. Lastly, I agree with the above poster, I don’t know if we should waste our time calling either candidate a coward. However, I feel that no Republicans have any right to discredit Kerry’s service when their candidate obviously DID choose to use connections to get out of combat and FAILED to show up for his entire service. I think there’s more accurate classifications for someone like that than a ‘pussy’. And to the person who says “speaking your mind carries a hefty price…just like conservatives in Madison”, The difference is that conservatives attack someone for what they say (i.e. Kerry speaking out against the war and anyone who spoke out against Iraq) and liberals attack someone for what they do (i.e. Bush invading Iraq). But I agree there is too much intolerance on either side and there comes a point where a difference of opinion becomes disrepectful and vulgur.
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“If Bush didn’t use his family connections, how did he get propelled over thousands of names on the Texas Air National Guard Waiting List?”
First let me say that I don’t know whether Bush used family connections to get into the TANG. My previous posts were simply to point out the contradictory claims: that Bush was a coward, but a coward with such powerful family connections that he could get out of the military in all sorts of ways, but that the coward actually chose a pretty dangerous way to get out. The coward then proceeded to volunteer for the war he was trying to avoid. The “Bush is a coward” claims just don’t add up.
Now as to why he was able to get into the Guard - I believe that Bush says that there were long waiting lines for some positions, but not for the one he chose. His service in the guard was pretty intense for the first three years - a lot more than what you would expect from a “weekend warrior”. That part of his story seems to check out. He met only minimal requirements during his last three years. But that was at a time when the armed forces were overloaded with people coming back from Vietnam. So it’s not surprising that the Guard was happy to let Bush go off to Alabama and then to Harvard.