Julie, I support gay marriage too. But the first thing we must accomplish is to rid Madison of the far-left-wing extremists who only turn people off by accusing them of being bigots if they don’t support gay marriage themselves…before they even get a chance to voice their opinion on an issue.

Those are the kind of people who give liberalism a bad name. They are also the reason conservative ideas suddenly became so popular all over Wisconsin. The impression Madison liberals have given the rest of the country is that liberals are the bad guys, an image most liberals do not deserve. Progressive activism has been, historically, nothing more than the same old anarchistic practice of dropping out, sitting, lying down, rioting and vandalism that college activists did in the sixties. Not that it didn’t accomplish anything, but it just doesn’t have the positive impact it once had.

And of course, there’s the socio-political marginalization of white males and Jews. That’s right, I’m a white male with pro-Jewish leanings. Like most liberals, I support gay marriage, affirmative action, etc., but most liberal white males and Jews in Madison have been made to feel unwelcome, which is why it is so hard to get us involved in any causes nowadays, not because we are too busy persuing our “priveleged” position in society as governors, presidents and CEOs, goals that most white males never stand a chance of achieving anyway, for a variety of reasons our critics never considered.

People should be judged by the choices they they have, not the choices they make, an idea Madison liberals have been way too slow to incorporate into their way of thinking. Until then, Madison liberals will continue to carry the burden of being perceived as, well, morons. To me, that’s exactly what they’ve been for the last fifteen years. The system is not the only thing that needs fixing.

…So you’re withholding your own support from causes you believe in, just to prove a point to the ‘elitist snobs’ you think are discriminating against you? I’m sorry if you’ve had some negative experience in the past, but your reaction is asinine, and you have no one to blame but yourself. If you think liberals are all ‘elitist snobs’, it’s either because a) you have somehow managed not to come across the 99% of us that aren’t; or b) you have an enormous chip on your shoulder, and people react to the negativity you project.

“So you’re withholding your own support from causes you believe in…and people react to the negativity you project.”

Precisely what is the point of your post? The poster you’re bad-mouthing states that he is a liberal. He simply does not care for extremist mentalities. And Madison is full of extremist mentalities! Even on the liberal end of the political barometer there are those who embarrass the rest of their ilk.

Yes, many Madison liberals are elitist snobs. They don’t speak for the rest of us, but we should still make every attempt to dissociate ourselves from them. And that includes not criticizing the above poster for merely stating the obvious. Otherwise, you will just become-look out, I’m gonna say it-and elitist snob. Lighten up!

Three examples, please, of elitist liberal snobbery in Madison:

“Three examples, please, of elitist liberal snobbery in Madison:”

If you need to ask someone else for three examples of elitist liberal snobbery here in Madison, then you either just moved here today, or you’re dense or you ARE one!

Yes, thank you for teh “I know you are but what I am I” reply. How about actually giving evidence to your generalization?

“Three examples, please, of elitist liberal snobbery in Madison:”

1) The argument consistently put forth that anyone who voted for Bush is an idiot.

2) The argument consistently put forth that anyone who supported the war in Iraq was a bloodthirsty racist who only wanted cheaper oil and American domination of the world.

3) The argument consistently put forth that the US should be more supportive of the Palestinians, despite their consistent attempts to kill as many Israelis as possible.

You want more examples? I can think of several. And I’m a liberal myself — imagine what a conservative would be able to come up with!

Actually, Republicans control the Wisconsin State Senate 19-14, not 17-14 as you show above.

Yep, those are three all-too-familiar examples. Another is the notion that setting SUVs on fire is a sure way to fight global warming. Yet another is the idea snobby Madison liberals have that it’s perfectly okay to punch somebody in the head and spit in their face just because they have a different opinion on something. Still need more examples?

When did SUVs get lit on fire in Madison?

Is the last poster actually using real examples, or just grossly exagerating to try and prove a point?

19-14 or 17-14, what’s the difference? Republicans control the Wisconsin State Senate. I guess the rest of Wisconsin decided that there needed to be balance. The state capital is located in the heart of one of the most embarrassingly liberal cities in North America.

“When did SUVs get lit on fire in Madison?”

It happened on Langdon Street two years ago on Earth Day.

madison liberals can be fervent and frothy at times which is quite annoying. but “moderate” liberal whiny white guys aren’t any better.

The state capital IS the embarassingly liberal city. The state CAPITOL is located in the heart of that city.

“but “moderate” liberal whiny white guys aren’t any better.”

They aren’t? Moderate liberal white guys, like all other moderate liberals, don’t act up to get their point across. Moderate liberals are much more mature than the extremist wackos among us could ever be.

Moderate liberals brainstorm, whereas wackos brainwash. Moderate liberals think before acting, and wackos just overact. Moderate liberals act rationally, but wackos act like just a bunch of spoiled brats.

What kind of liberal would you rather be?

“The state capital IS the embarassingly liberal city. The state CAPITOL is located in the heart of that city.”

Um, I think that’s what the poster already said. Hello?

“The state capital IS the embarassingly liberal city. The state CAPITOL is located in the heart of that city.”

Um, I believe that’s what the poster already said. Hello?

Um, why didn’t the first post I submitted make it through before I gave up and typed it again?

this has to be the most pathetic online back and forth i’ve ever seen. kids, let’s use our maturity caps, k?

um, ok.

“First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negroe’s great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White citizens’ “Councilor” or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direst action”; who paternistically feels that he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection. ” - mlk jr.

Why don’t you use the CAPS LOCK key, dude? I hate it when people type all lower-case!

No seriously, I agree that “wacko” liberals are to blame for the bad image liberals have here. It only makes us look immature. We’re liberals, for crying out loud! We’re the ones who are supposed to have our act together, not the conservatives. We had the moral high ground and we let it slip away.

The first step in getting our groove back is to get rid of that excess baggage: left-wing extremists. They’re the ones who come to mind when people think of Madison. The world has plenty of anarchy already. It doesn’t make sense to protest the oppression of defenseless souls around the globe in any way that will get you laughed at or arrested. What good would it do for any cause? Clowns, all of ‘em! From now on, let’s act in a way that will count for something, not in a way that only turns people off.

“Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection. ” - mlk jr.

The problem is that MLK would still find moderates a better alternative to outright anarchists. How do you think MLK would have reacted to the L.A. riots after the first verdict in the Rodney King case?

depends on how you define left wing extremist. the only real problem left wing extremist organization on campus is the iso (international socialist organization) and they are problematic not because of their socialist politics but because of their anti-democratic culture. they have a tradition of trying to co-opt other organizations and other organizations’ agendas. they are not very good at playing supportive roles. they like to take things over and refashion things in their own image.

then there are the truly impotent lefty orgs on campus who traditionally have some bark, but very little bite and are more like bureaucratic training grounds than actual effective activist organizations. like the college democrats, apac, blsa, apalsa, and certain segments of asm.

the other big lefty groups on campus are more or less pretty sane and do good work. including asm, especially their campaign work. there are occasionally small pockets of unstable activists in the mcsc and feminist groups who have limited influence, but they are usually found out and neutralized in house by the students of color and feminists who are not insane and unstable, which is the vast majority of them. unfortunately, once in a while they can create quite a mess, such as with the michael franklin lynching.

“The problem is that MLK would still find moderates a better alternative to outright anarchists. How do you think MLK would have reacted to the L.A. riots after the first verdict in the Rodney King case?”

he would have been very upset, i’m sure. but you know what, he would have been even more upset with the trial and it’s outcome itself. it says a lot that you focus so much on the riot without addressing the context of the trial.

and secondly, the influence of potentially violent rioting anarchists and socialists amongst madison’s leftist student activists is very very very small. and most of them are in the iso, and the iso gets zero respect from the other leftist orgs on campus.

y’all need to be careful not to confuse “wacko extremists” with “anarchists” or “far left wing” people.

wacko extremists who vandalize SUVs, spit on people and incite riots are ignorant and counterproductive to progressive causes, sure. we can all agree with that.

but most of the far left wing in this community, the anarchists and socialists and ultraliberals that i’ve met personally, face to face, are the most intelligent, well-mannered, active and PRODUCTIVE people in madison.

y’all seem to be constructing these little boxes to put people in, like if you’re not a “moderate” you must be an “extremist.” the real world doesn’t work like that. i think moderates are ineffective and naive and i proudly call myself a radical, but i’ve never spit on anyone, slashed a tire or called anyone a facist. there are a LOT of people like me in this community and VERY FEW “wacko extremists.” keep that in mind.

and props to whoever posted that MLK Jr. quote. that should be required reading for all the moderate liberals in this city and elsewhere.

“How do you think MLK would have reacted to the L.A. riots after the first verdict in the Rodney King case?”

Good point. MLK’s method of peaceful civil disobedience was necessary back then, but today is a different story. Much has been accomplished and there is still plenty of work to do. But we won’t make any headway at all if we act like a bunch of deranged militants every single time. Get violent and you’ll only give the other side a reason to oppress you.

True, the “wackos” are few in number, but they still give liberals a bad name, simply because no liberals have ever publicly denounced their actions. Also, even liberals who don’t scream coup d’etat every time to get their point across can give people a chill when they sermonize about “white males who exploit the suffering of people of color.”

I’m an African-American and I have met many white males who are far from being oppressors. Many of them actually wear business suits and drive SUVs. And they would do whatever it takes to stop the Klan from having a rally on the steps of the state capitol.

They also support gay marriage simply because they are raising families of their own and they know the value of a strong family structure. Yes, liberals in Madison have a bad rap because no one shouted down the extremist element when it reared its ugly head. The world may seem like a cruel place, but let’s remember our friends and neighbors when we decide what must be done to make it a better place.

The focus of this discussion seems to be shifting to vilifying moderates. Moderates-ahem!-are not lame. They are proactive. They merely avoid extremists from either end of the political spectrum. Moderates look at history and they see the damage caused by extremist ideologues. The problem is that there just aren’t enough moderates, which is why they never seem to accomplish anything for the common good.

I’m sure many moderates would support gay marriage, the original topic here, and would also support affirmative action. A correct moderate standpoint would be to implement reform but not to a point where innocent toes get stepped on in the process. Change will always be necessary, but care should be taken to see that human rights are not abused. And THAT is moderate ideology as I understand it.

moderates have never accomplished anything on their own. the founders of this country were not moderate. gandhi was not a moderate. nelson mandela was not a moderate. mlk was not a moderate. part of my point in posting that excerpt from his letter from birmingham jail was to highlight the fact that he was not only not a moderate, he saw moderates as emerging obstructions to justice.

the civil rights movement was not a movement of moderates. the battle against apartheid was not led by moderates. the workers who fought for the 40 hour work week were not considered moderates. the fight against corporate rule is not being led by moderates.

this is not about villifying moderates. my point is that moderates adjust to their climate. they wait for things to happen. moderates by nature are not pro-active. they must be convinced by others. they do not seek justice or truth, they wait for it to be presented to them. moderates tend to eventually come around, although quite slowly as they did during the civil rights movement. and this was only because gutsy white jewish kids from the northeast, who were not moderates, started driving down to the south to campaign for civil rights only to be murdered and made into martyrs. this got the attention of white moderates and finally convinced them to back the civil rights movement.

but of course, this doesn’t mean radicals should always be embraced. but if you are a seeker of truth and justice who is willing to take some risks, then you are probably not a moderate.

the problem here is labels.

we all define “moderate” and “liberal” and “radical” in different ways.

when i think of “moderate,” for example, i don’t think of what the previous poster said. i think of people who think that everything is okay, save for a few minor problems that can just be tweaked or whatever. i think of someone so concerned with hurting the rich (for example) that they refuse to help the poor. i think of that quote by MLK Jr. posted above.

it’s subjective. neither of us are right or wrong because our definitions are different. i think universal health care is a moderate position, but some would call me an extremist commie for thinking that.

i think we can all agree that we need more… let’s just call them “progressives,” people who take STRONG stances on issues and are willing to be ACTIVE (now, not later) in working on those issues, yet are also principled and can think TACTICALLY (sometimes you work within the system, sometimes you need mass protests— it all depends on the situation), people who understand the power that they have and are devoted to using that power to make the world a better place, people who don’t get caught up in ideology and ego and bullshit…

sometimes we need slow, progressive reform; somtemes we need mass protests; sometimes we need (potentially violent) civil disobedience— anyone who adheres strictly to one or the other is, in my opinion of course, naive.

a really important distinction to make here is that neither moderatism nor extremism is INHERENTLY right or wrong in every situation.

i’m down with whatever tactic is going to get the job done, and the final note i’ll make here is that the biggest progressive changes in this country have happened when people have rejected moderate (from my above definition) ideas and did what they had to do to make change— the civil rights movement, the labor movement, the vietnam protests, even the american revolution… these were not led by moderates. just a thought.

usually i don’t denounce the wackos either, and although i don’t identify as an “ultraliberal” a lot of people here would probably label me as one.

it’s not that we agree with the wackos. it’s that we don’t always believe it’s our responsibility to do so. i agree with you though, that we should adjust and make it clear that we disagree with the wackos. to me, it’s patronizing that we have to do this and that it isn’t just assumed that we are not all wackos. it’s a lot of bullshit really, but i suppose that’s what pr is all about.

it’s patronizing that as people of color, we often have to issue disclaimers before we make political engagements, that we have to first make it clear that we don’t hate white people, that we know white people in suits who drive suv’s that oppose the klan, blah blah blah. i feel for the person above who felt compelled to make that clear. i tend to not do that though just because i find it pretty stupid to have to do that to prove i’m not a wacko.

a quick note on the ISO hate here— i’m not a member, but i’m familiar with them… and like their tactics or not, they actually get shit done, both in madison and nationally, both by themselves and as effective members of coalitions.

i guess the best recent example would be the kevin cooper death penalty case— the ISO played a central role in getting him off death row, from what i understand.

just something to think about.

i don’t dispute that the iso can gets things done. they’re passionate believers who believe they are fighting for justice. their dedication makes them effective. i would however dispute that they are effective members of coalitions, unless you define effective as “eager to take over and fuck shit up.”

orgs like the iso, spartacus (who i don’t believe have a presence at uw, but are players nationally), and certain anarchist organizations are the most difficult leftist orgs to work with. property destruction is extreme and usually countereffective, and these orgs all take it lightly. and the cult-like culture doesn’t help either.

“i tend to not do that though just because i find it pretty stupid to have to do that to prove i’m not a wacko.”

Yeah, but too bad a lot of us white guys are still considered racist even when we’re actively fighting racism. When the f* do we get a break?

How would have King responded to the LA riots??? probably the same way he responded to the riots that he lived through: “A riot is at bottom the language of the unheard.”

Gosh, there are so many left-wing extremists here in Madison, especially the ones who try to justify using violence as a means of bringing about change. No wonder Madison has such a lousy reputation.

Everything I ever heard about Madison turned out to be true. I think I’ll move back to Minneapolis. This town sucks!

For being so ineffective, everyone sure seems to have an opinion about the ISO…

“Everything I ever heard about Madison turned out to be true. I think I’ll move back to Minneapolis. This town sucks!”

Bye bye! Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on your way out!

“Bye bye! Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on your way out!”

It won’t. Instead, I’ll swing it backward and hit you in the face with it, asshole! It’s too bad UW-Madison turns out such morons like you. That should explain why the state keeps cutting back spending on higher education. Why waste taxpayers’ money if it won’t do any good?

“It won’t. Instead, I’ll swing it backward and hit you in the face with it, asshole! It’s too bad UW-Madison turns out such morons like you. That should explain why the state keeps cutting back spending on higher education. Why waste taxpayers’ money if it won’t do any good?”

You’re absolutely right. Why should the state waste money on local assholes when it can waste money on out-of-state assholes like you?

“You’re absolutely right. Why should the state waste money on local assholes when it can waste money on out-of-state assholes like you?”

In case you didn’t know, out-of-state-students aren’t supported by in-state financial aid. Same thing in Minnesota, thank God for that! It helps keep the assholes in Wisconsin, where they belong. Ha ha!

I see it’s not just liberals who are assholes here in Madison. It’s also the ones like the poster who likes to bash out-of-staters. Yeah, Wisconsin is definitely where all the assholes in the Midwest live. Millions of residents in Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois and Michigan can’t be wrong.

When you say ‘Wisconsin’ you’ve said it all!

“Yeah, Wisconsin is definitely where all the assholes in the Midwest live.”

Yessiree, that’s why I drink Budweiser. It’s brewed elsewhere, so I know I’m getting quality beer. Better than that nasty swill they brew down in Milwaukee. Cheers!

Ok, now I must say something. Miller may not be the finest beer in America but it still owns that rice-based crap they brew in Mizzou and Colorado. I would also like to point out that Wisconsin features a number of very fine microbreweries.

-patrick klemz Badger Herald Sports

Yeah Pat, but none of them will ever approach the market share that ol’ Bud has always had. Keep your friggin’ microbrews. Just a bunch of small-timers using the locals as Guinea pigs. They’ll never make it. Bud ain’t got a grain of rice in it, by the way.

PEOPLE-THIS IS NOT HERE FOR YOU TO BANTER BACK AND FORTH ABOUT MLK JR OR BEER. RESPOND TO JULIE’S ARTICLE OR JOIN A CHAT ROOM FOR THIS NONSENSE.